Part 2 of our EXCLUSIVE Interview with Nicola Sturgeon
In the second part of our exclusive interview with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, young people from backgrounds typically under-represented in the media who have been learning journalism skills with Greater Govanhilll got to ask questions about the subjects they were most interested in. The interview took place just before the local elections in the First Minister’s constituency office in Govanhill.
Interview questions by: Anne Flynn, Becki Menzies, Ben Francis, Dylan Lombard, Jack Howse, Kiki Zheng, Maisie Wilson, Rhiannon J Davies, Shanine Gallagher, Zainab Ashraf and Zanib Ahmad. Photos by: Dylan Lombard
Young Voices participant Shanine Gallagher poses for a photo with Nicola Sturgeon. Photo by Dylan Lombard.
In Part 2 of the interview, Nicola answers questions on rent control, the SNP’s action on Palestine, the cost of living crisis, refugee issues, education, women in politics and the future of Govanhill…
Becki Menzies: The Scottish Government isn’t bringing in rent controls until the end of 2025. Why take so long when we know rents are already too high, and there's not enough good quality housing and tenants’ rights – especially for young people, who have no hope of buying?
Nicola Sturgeon: Rent controls are an important part of what we're doing, but it's not the only thing we need to do. We have to legislate properly, which unfortunately takes time. These things are always potentially subject to challenge and legal challenge. We've got to make sure we get it right so that we can be as sure as possible that it can withstand challenge. What I would say is both my party and the Greens – it's Patrick Harvie who's in charge of this policy – we 've got no interest in slowing it down without good reason. So if it's taking this length of time, it’s for good reason. We're doing all other stuff along the way.
Already some years ago, we made some changes so that there is a system where local councils can apply for some powers around rent levels in their area. The reason we're going further is most councils state these are not the easiest powers to use, but there are rights there already. We're providing help for people who are struggling with rent just now through a grant fund, an increase in support for discretionary housing payments, and putting a lot of investment into building more houses, because actually it's the supply of houses that we need, to make sure this is good enough for the future. In Govanhill, we're doing a lot with the council and the housing associations to tackle rogue landlords, and get properties out of their hands. Rent controls is an important part of it, but it's not the only part.
BM: One thing people are calling for is a rent freeze. You already see landlords around here putting their rates up since rent controls were put on the table. The way to tackle that now is by putting in place a rent freeze so landlords can't just up the prices to make the most money possible in the next few years.
NS: We need to keep all of these things under review. I don't want to sound as if I'm not understanding the case you're making, because I really do. But if you were to go to local housing associations, they would be very cautious of rent freezes because you've got to invest in a property and make sure the house is kept up to standard, and you need an income at a time of rising costs to do that. With private landlords – you get some really bad landlords who exploit tenants, but there's a lot of good private landlords out there as well – you've got to strike a balance between making sure that you've got a supply of quality housing, but that being affordable. That is sometimes quite a difficult balance to strike.
Zainab Ashraf: What support is the Scottish Government extending to the people of Palestine who are still suffering under brutal occupation and an Amnesty International-recognized apartheid regime?
NS: I've been a strong supporter of Palestinian rights all the time I've been in politics. The Scottish government is very strongly supportive of a two-state solution and of finding a peace settlement that supports that in Palestine. As a minister, I’ve led debates in the Scottish parliament on this. And we will always be there standing up for Palestinian rights and for that peaceful two state solution, which I think is what the people of Palestine deserve and have a right to.
ZA: For Ukraine, there have been boycotts and widespread charity initiatives. There is always hesitation to provide that for the people of Palestine. Can you use your powers to encourage that?
NS: The Scottish Government continues to support any humanitarian appeals for Palestine as we would for other parts of the world. In terms of boycotts and what international law says about Israeli settlements, we don't support trade with settlements. Equally we don't support a wider boycott of Israel, but we would follow the international law position on that.
Maisie Wilson: The Southside of Glasgow is an example of the growing inequality in Scottish society. People are moving into the area earning big salaries, Shawlands Arcade is being knocked down to build new flats that will be out of the price range of a lot of people, and at the same time there are high rates of child poverty. How can we narrow this divide?
NS: We have a responsibility to do everything we can. Take child poverty – any level of child poverty is too high in my view – and levels of child poverty are too high in Scotland. For context, they are lower in Scotland because of a lot of the policies of the Scottish Government, than in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. We introduced the Scottish Child Payment, which doesn't exist anywhere else in the UK. We just doubled it and will increase it again, which will lift lots of children out of poverty. Research the Child Poverty Action Group recently published showed that the combined effects of Scottish government policies and the low cost of childcare because of the free childcare position we have, will reduce the cost for a low-income family of raising a child in Scotland by 31%, the equivalent of £24,000.
So that is what we are doing, and we need to continue to do that. A lot of the levers though, to tackle poverty and to reduce the inequality gap, don't lie with us. Most of the decisions around taxes and welfare still lie with London, which is one of the reasons I want Scotland to be independent. In the meantime, we need to put pressure on them to do the work. Unfortunately I'm not hopeful about the outcome.
One of the things I think there's a strong case for is a wealth tax. And there's arguments to be made for windfall taxes on companies and sectors that, either because of the pandemic or the wider cost of living crisis, are making vast profits. I don't have the power to do that. So there is a big limit on what the Scottish Government can do. But with what we can do, I do think we're doing a considerable amount.
MW: If you had the power, what else would you prioritise to try and narrow that gap?
NS: I would take welfare, for example. We now have limited social security powers. There's 12 different benefits now under our control. I think seven of them don't exist anywhere else in the UK. So we've created entirely new forms of support. If we had control over the whole welfare system, we could do that to a greater extent. The benefits my government controls have gone up by 6 percent this year, while the benefits UK Government controls have gone up 3.1 percent.
If we had the powers, we could better integrate benefit and tax systems so that they work together – things like a basic income, which we are trying to move ahead as far as we can to something like a minimum income guarantee. But I think there's a strong case for a citizens income, a basic income. We can't do that right now, because we don't control all of the tax and welfare systems.
Shanine Gallagher: I recently went to an event at MILK Cafe where they were discussing the hostile environment policy and the asylum process. It got me wondering why these big topics were never really covered in school, and if anything was being done to improve that?
NS: We don't have a statutory curriculum in Scotland, we have a sort of curriculum framework; the Curriculum for Excellence. It is all about educating good citizens, not just filling people's hands with facts and figures, important though that is. I would hope that we had an education system that gave young people a wider awareness of the world around them, including around asylum issues. But one of the things that the Tories are doing right now, is trying to stoke a culture war, which is taking shape in a number of different ways on a number of different issues, but asylum and immigration is clearly a key one.
So I think it's a fair point. Maybe we need to think more about how we give young people an awareness of why people seek asylum or the obligation of countries to offer sanctuary to people. And also, in a much more basic sense, why it's important for a country to be diverse and open to people who come from other parts of the world, whether they come here to work, get an education, or seek asylum. Scotland's a better place for being diverse, I think it could be more diverse in many ways. But we actually need people to come to this country to make a contribution, because we don't have enough people to do all the jobs required. So there's a self interest in all of this as well.
I hate the whole debate about immigration in the UK. I think that it's slightly better in Scotland, but we shouldn't be complacent. But I absolutely abhor the Tory approach to immigration. And that policy of sending people to Rwanda is one of the most disgusting things that I think I've ever heard. Coming from a Tory government, that is a big statement.
Dylan Lombard: Now that the COVID restrictions have eased, what are you looking forward to?
NS: Not getting caught without my mask! No, the thing I looked forward to most when the restrictions were at their tightest is what I've been enjoying most now – just interacting with people again. How long has it been since we've been able to do just this – have a number of people sitting in one room together. Like most people, I really miss seeing my mum and dad, as well as my sister and niece and nephews and my pals. So I'm just enjoying getting used to seeing people again and not having to think about it. I'm sure we all just want to forget about the pandemic as soon as we can, but there are some things we should try never to completely take for granted again, and being able to see people you care about when you want is one of them.
Zainab Ashraf: What's it like to be a woman in politics today, with the attention and misogyny you face and the glare you constantly under?
NS: One of the things I'm conscious of is that I've been in politics for so long, I've become a bit inured to some of this. Sometimes, I see it more starkly through the eyes of younger women. It's harder for women in politics today than it was when I was starting out. Some things are better – there are more of us, there is more of a focus on equality and diversity, but in my earlier days, there wasn’t social media. All the unpleasant people who hurl abuse through social media were there, they just didn't have the platform or the access to do it. And it is really toxic, for people generally, but particularly for women and ethnic minorities, as well as for disabled and LGBT+ people. I think that makes politics and public life generally much more difficult. I know women have more questions about getting into politics now. We've got lots to do to make sure it doesn't go in the wrong direction.
I always preface this by saying my job’s a privilege and being a politician is not compulsory, it's voluntary. Nobody makes you do it. And you have to accept the tough bits as well as all of the good bits. But there's no doubt that living your life under perpetual scrutiny takes its toll. And there are days where I think I can't do this anymore. I just can't wait to shut the door and hide away. So it is difficult sometimes, but I have to accept that.
Rhiannon Davies: Do we have to accept that there isn’t anything that can be done to reduce the level of abuse?
NS: We don't have to accept toxic abuse. Even in the position I'm in, I don't have to accept somebody hurling rape threats or misogynistic abuse at me. What I meant is, I have to accept, whether I like it or not, if – not that I would be stupid enough to do this obviously – but if I was to walk into a barbershop while it was still the law to wear masks and momentarily forget to put my mask on, then I may think it is a bit disproportionate to get splattered across all the front pages. But I have to accept that because that's the scrutiny that comes with my job. I might think that's ridiculous, but I accept that bit because it's democracy.
We shouldn't accept the abuse and the toxicity of social media. That's the bit we do have to push back against, or we will have a situation where women and others won’t want to do this anymore. In this council election campaign – I think all parties would say this, but I can only speak for mine – we found it more difficult in this election than we have done, certainly in all my time, to get women to be candidates. That should really make us all stop and think that this is not going in the right direction.
RD: In terms of this social media, that is any more than the Scottish Government could do in terms of regulating big tech?
NS: We don't have regulatory powers there, but I do think that is a big need for greater regulation. I'm always hesitant to talk about media regulation because a free media is the cornerstone of a healthy democracy. But with social media, you don't have the same checks and balances that exist with traditional media. So, you have a situation where a lie gets put out there with the same force and the same status as the truth and you get to a point where nobody can distinguish between the two. That really erodes and undermines democracy. The companies themselves should be taking more responsibility. But I think we need to see a regulatory framework that reduces abuse, but also a public discourse where people can distinguish between lies and the truth. We can accept that we can all disagree, but we should have a basic accepted idea of what's true and what's not.
Jack Howse: How has Govanhill changed since you’ve been the constituency MSP and what do you see for the future of the neighbourhood?
NS: I think Govanhill is firmly on the right track. There are big issues in Govanhill. They're not unique to Govanhill, despite the efforts of people to say that they are. Some of them are maybe more acute in Govanhill than they are in some other areas. It's not about denying issues in Govanhill, but I hate the narrative about Govanhill. I also hate the fact that there are a lot of people who try to use Govanhill to get at me. They can get at me if they want, but they shouldn't denigrate Govanhill to do it. There's a lot of racists who have probably never been in Govanhill who try to use Govanhill to peddle their own hate.
I've been MSP for Govanhill since 2011, and certainly over the last five years, I defy anyone to come to Govanhill and not see progress. There's still a lot to be done in terms of housing, cleansing, and some law and order issues. I accept all of that, but take a walk down Victoria Road and, the diversity in Govanhill, the sense of vibrancy around the businesses that are here and setting up, I think it's absolutely on the right track. In terms of the future, look at Govanhill and you see the future is already taking shape before our eyes.
The next issue of the magazine will be produced by the Govanhill Young Voices team featuring stories on issues they’re most passionate about.