Nicola Sturgeon: Interviewed EXCLUSIVELY by our Young Voices Team
In this exclusive interview with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, young people from backgrounds typically under-represented in the media who have been learning journalism skills with Greater Govanhilll, got to ask questions about the subjects they were most interested in. The interview took place just before the local elections in the First Minister’s constituency office in Govanhill.
Interview questions by: Anne Flynn, Becki Menzies, Ben Francis, Dylan Lombard, Jack Howse, Kiki Zheng, Maisie Wilson, Rhiannon J Davies, Shanine Gallagher, Zainab Ashraf and Zanib Ahmad. Photos by: Dylan Lombard and Rhiannon J Davies
Nicola Sturgeon MSP talking to the Greater Govanhill Young Voices team | Photo by Rhiannon J Davies
In part 1 of the interview, Nicola Sturgeon answers questions on the treatment of women in the criminal justice system, trans rights, Ukraine and speaking out on the menopause…
Anne Flynn: I wanted to ask about your apology to those tried for witchhood and whether you think there are any parallels with the treatment of women in the criminal justice system today?
Nicola Sturgeon: I do think there are parallels. One of the reasons why I thought it important to give the apology was to recognise that the treatment of women, and the sexism and misogyny that is still very prevalent today, has really deep historical roots.
That’s in addition to the fact that I think it's right that we do recognise historical injustices. If you think about the women who were accused of, tried for, or executed for being witches, it was women who were a bit different or who spoke out or who were deemed to not follow the rules of being a woman back then. Instead of being accepted for who they were, they were castigated as witches. Because they were women, anything they did that set them apart was used against them. And that's still the reality.
Obviously women are no longer tried for being witches, but with the abuse that women get on social media and in society generally, it's got a long way to go. Women in the criminal justice system are often cheated and misunderstood. So yeah, I think there are still parallels. I think recognising some of the historic aspects of this helps us to feel what we need to do to condense all these things down.
AF: You said that acknowledging historic injustices is vital to building a better country, but what would you say to people who argue that miscarriages of justice are mostly swept under the rug?
NS: I think you've got to be a bit careful about talking about historic injustices. I was talking about when classes, or groups of people, are subject to injustice because of who they are. Individual concerns with miscarriages of justice have to be tested in the justice system. We have systems that give people the ability to appeal convictions or go to the criminal cases review commission. We should always be alive to injustice being swept under the carpet. But it's important to distinguish between class injustices and individual cases that need to be dealt with through the proper processes.
Jack Howse: Transgender issues are very much in the media at the moment. Considering there are such polarised opinions around transgender rights, even within your own party, how do you think we can end these culture wars?
NS: In terms of my own party, I'm not going to say there are not strong views against the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) and recognising trans rights, but I don't think that's a majority. Nor do I think that's the case in society. I think we can overstate some of this because there is a very vocal group of people who don't agree with the consensus about the gender recognition reform proposals. I accept that their concerns come from a place of sincerity, while there are others trying to weaponise this debate for reasons of transphobia.
Trans people are probably the most stigmatised and discriminated against group in our society. I think it is right that you recognise the reasons for that stigmatisation and address it. The GRA reform doesn't give a trans person a single extra right they don't have right now. It just makes the process of gender recognition less traumatic, less intrusive and less degrading for people.
The thing that frustrates me about this debate is, I've been a feminist for as long as I can remember and I get very frustrated at the suggestion that standing up for trans rights is somehow denigrating women rights. As long as I've got a breath in my body, I will argue against that. The threats to women in our society come from abusive men. It's on a spectrum from catcalls in the street through to serious assault and murder of women. But it's abusive men who do that. Trying to somehow say that the threats to women come from trans women, is wrong.
There are many other threats to women's rights right now. What's happening in many countries around abortion rights is horrifying. So I get frustrated that we're focusing on the trans issue, as the big threat to women. Meanwhile, we’re taking our eye off the ball with all these real threats. There is no part of me that believes standing up for trans rights and standing up for women's rights is in any way contradictory or mutually exclusive and I feel really strongly about the need to stand up for that.
JH: There are people, even within your party who might not have the same views as you. How do you combat that?
NS: I can't make people take particular views, but as a party, we need to stand very firmly against transphobia, as well as sexism, racism, homophobia. Often there is a judgement and a balance to be struck between that. But people, as we've all got a right to do in a democracy, can express their views and to speak out. They're never easy balances, but I hope my party should be judged on what we do. I'm determined we will take the gender recognition reform legislation through the parliament and make that change.
All the focus of the debate is on GRA, when actually there's much more we have to do to improve the reality of life for trans people So that's what I'll continue to stand up for. People are entitled to disagree with me, obviously, and I'll argue my case. I support Scotland being an independent country for a lot of reasons. I want Scotland to be on an equal basis to countries all over the world. But for me, it is also about Scotland being a place that is equal and inclusive, where people are respected for who they are, regardless. That's what I want for Scotland now and in the future.
Ben Francis: In a couple of interviews about Ukraine, you said that a no fly zone should be kept on the table, which could lead to escalation in the conflict. Do you still stand by those comments?
NS: I stand by what I said, but, what I said, as is very often the case, was slightly misrepresented. I wasn't supporting a no fly zone in particular. What I was saying more generally, was questioning the decision on the part of NATO to be very explicit with Vladimir Putin about what was off the table, which could give him a free hand to think he could do certain things with no consequences. You have people in Ukraine who are fighting a heroic battle against his aggression, but he's somebody that will – and has – used nuclear threats. He's committing war crimes every day right now. And I think, if your starting position with someone like him is to say that no matter what you do, we are not going to take action beyond a certain point, are we not giving him too much of a green light? So that's the point I was trying to make. It wasn't a particular call for a no fly zone.
BF: But don't you think that could still be quite a dangerous precedent to set – for countries to be saying that a global war is a potential thing they might engage in?
NS: Where's the international norm in what Vladamir Putin is doing? The war in Ukraine didn't start however many weeks ago. It started years ago when he annexed Crimea and went in and occupied and caused a war in the Eastern Ukraine. If Putin gets away with what he's doing in Ukraine – and hopefully he won't – he won’t stop there. He'll go further and threaten the countries on the European Union's eastern border. Nobody wants this position but if the democratic world puts limits on what it's going to do, it doesn't mean he'll stop. So you end up with an escalating, dangerous situation at the hands of Vladimir Putin.
I've spent most of my life in politics when it comes to these kinds of issues opposing illegal wars. I, and my party, were strong opponents of the Iraq war. I absolutely believe that international law and the principles of democracy and sovereignty of countries are really important. But the world cannot stand by and allow someone like Putin to do what he's doing, because he won't stop in Ukraine if he gets away with it.
Kiki Zheng: You recently spoke about the menopause on Loose Women, but clearly weren’t comfortable doing so. Do you find talking about your more private side helps to create a more friendly image? And is that a public speaking technique, or is it something that comes naturally?
NS: People laugh at me when I say this, but I'm naturally a very shy person. I've always had to work really hard to be able to speak in front of audiences. But over the years, I've become a great believer in the fact that no matter how long you do public speaking, you should always feel nervous and you should always prepare. So that sense of never being entirely comfortable is actually quite good, because it means you don't get complacent.
Talking about personal stuff is not something I do as a tactic to make myself seem more human, and if I did it's probably failing. But I suppose, the longer I'm in politics and the older I get, I find it a bit artificial not to talk a little bit about being a person as well as a politician. I don't share everything about my private life. But I do when I think it's relevant to what I do as a politician or, and I don't want to sound arrogant because I'm only one person, when I think sharing some private, personal experiences might help others. I think because I've got a platform, I've got a bit of a responsibility to do that.
Take the menopause, as an example; I’ve been wondering ‘What it’s going to be like in my job? Is it going to be obvious? Am I going to struggle?’. And I suddenly realised there was nobody that had done a job like me before who had given a speech about it I could go and read or listen to. It would help me a lot to hear another female politician talking openly about it. So if I don't have anybody to go to then, thinking about women in politics 10 years from now, maybe I can give them someone they can go to. That's what I mean by talking about my own experiences if I can help a little bit. I might have to overcome the discomfort of doing it, but I think it's important to try.
We’ll be publishing part two of this interview tomorrow…
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